The following are extracts from an telephone interview conducted yesterday by the Guardian's Pakistan correspondent, Declan Walsh, with the father of the country's nuclear weapons programme, Abdul Qadeer Khan ______________
by Declan Walsh
(June 04, Islamabad, Sri Lanka Guardian) Four years ago you made a televised confession offering your "deepest regrets and unqualified apologies" for selling nuclear technology to Iran, North Korea and Libya. Was it genuine?
"I never was selling. This is the western garbage that uses the word selling. I never sold anything to anyone. I never sold anything and I never got any money. Nobody has proved this and nobody can prove it.
Was your confession made of your own free will?
"It was not of my own free will. It was handed into my hand."
So why did you agree to go along with it?
"Oh, in the national interest I guess. And the promises which were made."
What promises?
"Freedom, rehabilitation, all these things."
Are you happy that you went along with it?
"No, not now. I was hand-tied. I think it was a mistake. At that time things were not so clear and you couldn't see that people could go back on their words and renege their promises.
Do you hold President Pervez Musharraf personally responsible for this?
One person holds the reins, the others follow ... There are always self-seekers and sycophants and more lies. This goes on.
President Musharraf might say that American evidence forced him to act against you?
The Americans presented to the whole world the proof against Iraq. And you know what it was. And now about Iran, and so it goes on. It's unbelievable that Bush and Colin Powell and Dick Cheney and Condolleezza Rice are bringing lies, lies, lies, bringing photos and false documents ... it can happen everywhere.
Do you feel any responsibility for the nuclear programmes in North Korea, Libya or Iran?
No ... you must have read that the Swiss president destroyed papers that included weapons blueprints. [That shows that] the western countries have all those blueprints and technology and papers and know-how. So they were supplying to everyone. They were supplying to us, they were supplying to them. The only thing is that they were using the same route as we were using.
Which route was that?
Dubai. It was a free port. We were importing all our things from Dubai and all the other countries were importing from Dubai.
Some people say you were running a "nuclear supermarket", Time magazine called you a "merchant of menace". How do you feel about these terms?
I don't care. It doesn't bother me at all. They don't like our God, they don't like our prophet, they don't like our holy book, the Qur'an. So how could they like me?
... I have come to realise that one person writes – sorry to use the word – a shitpile and everyone picks up and quotes him whether it is true or not. It is meant for the western public, the western media, who are mostly totally ignorant of the facts here. [they say that] my house is a huge white villa, I have 43 villas here, I have so many bank accounts. Nobody could ever prove anything. [They say that] I had a very huge $10m hotel in Timbuktu. You should have gone and seen – it was an eight-room mud brick house where the poor people reside.
So you are not a rich man?
Never was, never will be.
-------------------
The IAEA wants to send its investigators to speak with you. Would you speak to them?
Why should I talk to them? I am under no obligation. We are not signatory to NPT [Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty]. I have not violated any international laws. So why should I talk to them?
So even if it were possible, you wouldn't?
Why should I? This is my internal affair and my country's affair – why should I talk to them?
They say they want to make sure no other country can illegally acquire the bomb.
Why don't you talk about Israel, why don't you talk about South Africa. Why did you supply and help South Africa to manufacture six bombs ... this is a discriminatory approach. That is wrong with us and it should be wrong with them also.
-------------------
There's been a lot of speculation that you are keeping an "insurance policy" -- documents that shows links between nuclear smuggling and the Pakistani military – with your daughter in London. Are you?
No such thing happened. MI6 has spoken to my daughter, they have been to her house. I did not keep any official paper in my house or anywhere. I know it's an official secret. … When I left I had a few ballpoints and a small table calendar and nothing else.
-------------------
What did you do for the celebrations to mark 10 years since Pakistan became a nuclear power?
I stayed at home. I saw on the TV what was going on, I saw on the newspapers. Some people sent flowers, some people phoned and congratulated.
How did you feel?
Two days are important in the history of Pakistan – the 14th of August, when Pakistan was created, and this 28th May, when at least Pakistan got the capacity of protecting itself against aggression and threats and blackmailing. It was a very big day. And since you have been a part of it, you feel proud of being such an historical movement.
What has Pakistan gained from having the bomb?
Peace. No attacks from India in the past 36 years. Otherwise there might have been a war in Kashmir, there might have been a war in Punjab ... that has given something, some sense of security to the country.
How has it defined Pakistan's relationship with the west. You said in the past the west was hostile to Islam. So what has it done?
You know very well the west never likes any country to be a bit independent, whether it is making a bomb, or whether it is financial position and stuff. They want to keep them under thumb. It is not giving any threat to anyone ... We have to look after our interests as the western countries look after their interests.
-------------------
Where are you speaking from?
I am inside my house. I'm in the living room. I can see the guards. You can see them, they are all around.
Do you hope your house arrest will be lifted soon?
There's always hope as long as the world is there. As long as you are living there is always hope. Without hope you can't survive.
-by Arrangement with Guardian in London
- Sri Lanka Guardian
by Declan Walsh
(June 04, Islamabad, Sri Lanka Guardian) Four years ago you made a televised confession offering your "deepest regrets and unqualified apologies" for selling nuclear technology to Iran, North Korea and Libya. Was it genuine?
"I never was selling. This is the western garbage that uses the word selling. I never sold anything to anyone. I never sold anything and I never got any money. Nobody has proved this and nobody can prove it.
Was your confession made of your own free will?
"It was not of my own free will. It was handed into my hand."
So why did you agree to go along with it?
"Oh, in the national interest I guess. And the promises which were made."
What promises?
"Freedom, rehabilitation, all these things."
Are you happy that you went along with it?
"No, not now. I was hand-tied. I think it was a mistake. At that time things were not so clear and you couldn't see that people could go back on their words and renege their promises.
Do you hold President Pervez Musharraf personally responsible for this?
One person holds the reins, the others follow ... There are always self-seekers and sycophants and more lies. This goes on.
President Musharraf might say that American evidence forced him to act against you?
The Americans presented to the whole world the proof against Iraq. And you know what it was. And now about Iran, and so it goes on. It's unbelievable that Bush and Colin Powell and Dick Cheney and Condolleezza Rice are bringing lies, lies, lies, bringing photos and false documents ... it can happen everywhere.
Do you feel any responsibility for the nuclear programmes in North Korea, Libya or Iran?
No ... you must have read that the Swiss president destroyed papers that included weapons blueprints. [That shows that] the western countries have all those blueprints and technology and papers and know-how. So they were supplying to everyone. They were supplying to us, they were supplying to them. The only thing is that they were using the same route as we were using.
Which route was that?
Dubai. It was a free port. We were importing all our things from Dubai and all the other countries were importing from Dubai.
Some people say you were running a "nuclear supermarket", Time magazine called you a "merchant of menace". How do you feel about these terms?
I don't care. It doesn't bother me at all. They don't like our God, they don't like our prophet, they don't like our holy book, the Qur'an. So how could they like me?
... I have come to realise that one person writes – sorry to use the word – a shitpile and everyone picks up and quotes him whether it is true or not. It is meant for the western public, the western media, who are mostly totally ignorant of the facts here. [they say that] my house is a huge white villa, I have 43 villas here, I have so many bank accounts. Nobody could ever prove anything. [They say that] I had a very huge $10m hotel in Timbuktu. You should have gone and seen – it was an eight-room mud brick house where the poor people reside.
So you are not a rich man?
Never was, never will be.
-------------------
The IAEA wants to send its investigators to speak with you. Would you speak to them?
Why should I talk to them? I am under no obligation. We are not signatory to NPT [Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty]. I have not violated any international laws. So why should I talk to them?
So even if it were possible, you wouldn't?
Why should I? This is my internal affair and my country's affair – why should I talk to them?
They say they want to make sure no other country can illegally acquire the bomb.
Why don't you talk about Israel, why don't you talk about South Africa. Why did you supply and help South Africa to manufacture six bombs ... this is a discriminatory approach. That is wrong with us and it should be wrong with them also.
-------------------
There's been a lot of speculation that you are keeping an "insurance policy" -- documents that shows links between nuclear smuggling and the Pakistani military – with your daughter in London. Are you?
No such thing happened. MI6 has spoken to my daughter, they have been to her house. I did not keep any official paper in my house or anywhere. I know it's an official secret. … When I left I had a few ballpoints and a small table calendar and nothing else.
-------------------
What did you do for the celebrations to mark 10 years since Pakistan became a nuclear power?
I stayed at home. I saw on the TV what was going on, I saw on the newspapers. Some people sent flowers, some people phoned and congratulated.
How did you feel?
Two days are important in the history of Pakistan – the 14th of August, when Pakistan was created, and this 28th May, when at least Pakistan got the capacity of protecting itself against aggression and threats and blackmailing. It was a very big day. And since you have been a part of it, you feel proud of being such an historical movement.
What has Pakistan gained from having the bomb?
Peace. No attacks from India in the past 36 years. Otherwise there might have been a war in Kashmir, there might have been a war in Punjab ... that has given something, some sense of security to the country.
How has it defined Pakistan's relationship with the west. You said in the past the west was hostile to Islam. So what has it done?
You know very well the west never likes any country to be a bit independent, whether it is making a bomb, or whether it is financial position and stuff. They want to keep them under thumb. It is not giving any threat to anyone ... We have to look after our interests as the western countries look after their interests.
-------------------
Where are you speaking from?
I am inside my house. I'm in the living room. I can see the guards. You can see them, they are all around.
Do you hope your house arrest will be lifted soon?
There's always hope as long as the world is there. As long as you are living there is always hope. Without hope you can't survive.
-by Arrangement with Guardian in London
- Sri Lanka Guardian
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